Grips
Here's something I found interesting. Since we're always thinking about and talking about grips I was checking out this video I found on youtube.
The guy here uses the Burton grip. I use a modified version of the Burton Grip. I have 2 fingers in between the sticks. Some people call it the 'Miceli-Stoned' grip. There's a funny story behind that, but I won't go into that here. I thought I was pretty much the only guy using that grip. But others have pointed out to me that Victor Feldman uses it as well as a few other players.
To me the reality of grips is that each one can do things different, better and even worse than the others. To me that's a good thing because that will make people play different partly depending on the grip they use.
I think the grip I use makes me play different from guys who use the Burton grip. Sometimes I like that and sometimes I get a little depressed thinking maybe I'm missing something but not playing another way.
One of the positive things about my grip is that I think it's between the Stevens grip and the Burton grip in terms of using alternating stickings with the same hand.
On these videos both of us are playing a Bach Fuge in G minor. Actually Stefdav (his youtube name) plays the whole thing, I just play an excerpt. Stefdav sounds great I think. This comparison has nothing to do with his playing because I was very impressed by it.
The one thing I noticed was that with the Burton grip if you were to play C D C D with only your right hand, you'd use only one stick. With my grip I could use each mallet in the right hand to play each note. Now you can do that with the Stevens grip and can even play the notes faster and longer. For instance I would argue it's easiest to play a trill with one hand with the Stevens grip, my grip would be next easiest and burton the most difficult.
If you compare the 2 vids here, you'll see what I mean. Stefdav obviously has really developed hands! He'll play those lines with one stick. I'll use 2.
I had a talk with a student about this topic. He was trying to do things with the Burton grip that I didn't think could be done. After a couple weeks of discussion he agreed. I think everybody wants to think they can do everything with their grip that any other grip can do. I would argue that that's not the case at all!
Try playing a Bach 2 part invention with the Burton grip alternating sticks. I would argue that it really can't be done. I did a few with my grip however it was very difficult. It seems like to me that with the Stevens grip it would be the easiest.
Now before any starts getting defensive this is not a better than conversation. After all look what Burton does with his grip. Way more than most of us can do with ANY grip. Listen to Teddy Charles play 4 mallets. I'm sure that's the Musser grip(anybody know for sure?). He does amazing stuff. Victor Feldman Plays with the same grip I use and does amazing stuff!
To me what's interesting about grips is that they each present obstacles and hurdles that each player must overcome. And great players overcome these hurdles in unique ways. Listen to the podcasts at Larrys Improv Page between myself Ed Saindon, John Piper and a few others. We practice together (via the net). That is we pick a tune and all do solo versions of the tune. We get to check each other out. It seems like Ed and John have mastered the Burton grip and overcome any obstacles with that grip.
Altough they each have a unique sound their playing has sylistic qualities that come out of the Burton grip. Their are some similarities in their style. A kind of Burtonesque 'school of thought'.
So it was interesting to me to come across this video on youtube and how stefdav approached the fugue. Also the difference between the 2 grips.
And it was interesting to me to have the discussion with my student about grips. No grip is universal, they all have strengths and weeknesses. The Stevens grip offers a lot of independence and the most 'pianistic' playing of all the grips. Although it's sort of a piano player with only 4 fingers! I would argue though for vibes it lacks the power that the other grips offer. People have disagreed with me about this, but they haven't changed my mind yet.
I think the grip that I use offers a sort of middle ground between the 2. It seems like the Burton grip might be the most 'powerful' of the group. But I haven't used that grip in 20 years so I can't speak about that. Also I don't know much about the Stevens grip except what i see.
Any thoughts on grips??
The guy here uses the Burton grip. I use a modified version of the Burton Grip. I have 2 fingers in between the sticks. Some people call it the 'Miceli-Stoned' grip. There's a funny story behind that, but I won't go into that here. I thought I was pretty much the only guy using that grip. But others have pointed out to me that Victor Feldman uses it as well as a few other players.
To me the reality of grips is that each one can do things different, better and even worse than the others. To me that's a good thing because that will make people play different partly depending on the grip they use.
I think the grip I use makes me play different from guys who use the Burton grip. Sometimes I like that and sometimes I get a little depressed thinking maybe I'm missing something but not playing another way.
One of the positive things about my grip is that I think it's between the Stevens grip and the Burton grip in terms of using alternating stickings with the same hand.
On these videos both of us are playing a Bach Fuge in G minor. Actually Stefdav (his youtube name) plays the whole thing, I just play an excerpt. Stefdav sounds great I think. This comparison has nothing to do with his playing because I was very impressed by it.
The one thing I noticed was that with the Burton grip if you were to play C D C D with only your right hand, you'd use only one stick. With my grip I could use each mallet in the right hand to play each note. Now you can do that with the Stevens grip and can even play the notes faster and longer. For instance I would argue it's easiest to play a trill with one hand with the Stevens grip, my grip would be next easiest and burton the most difficult.
If you compare the 2 vids here, you'll see what I mean. Stefdav obviously has really developed hands! He'll play those lines with one stick. I'll use 2.
I had a talk with a student about this topic. He was trying to do things with the Burton grip that I didn't think could be done. After a couple weeks of discussion he agreed. I think everybody wants to think they can do everything with their grip that any other grip can do. I would argue that that's not the case at all!
Try playing a Bach 2 part invention with the Burton grip alternating sticks. I would argue that it really can't be done. I did a few with my grip however it was very difficult. It seems like to me that with the Stevens grip it would be the easiest.
Now before any starts getting defensive this is not a better than conversation. After all look what Burton does with his grip. Way more than most of us can do with ANY grip. Listen to Teddy Charles play 4 mallets. I'm sure that's the Musser grip(anybody know for sure?). He does amazing stuff. Victor Feldman Plays with the same grip I use and does amazing stuff!
To me what's interesting about grips is that they each present obstacles and hurdles that each player must overcome. And great players overcome these hurdles in unique ways. Listen to the podcasts at Larrys Improv Page between myself Ed Saindon, John Piper and a few others. We practice together (via the net). That is we pick a tune and all do solo versions of the tune. We get to check each other out. It seems like Ed and John have mastered the Burton grip and overcome any obstacles with that grip.
Altough they each have a unique sound their playing has sylistic qualities that come out of the Burton grip. Their are some similarities in their style. A kind of Burtonesque 'school of thought'.
So it was interesting to me to come across this video on youtube and how stefdav approached the fugue. Also the difference between the 2 grips.
And it was interesting to me to have the discussion with my student about grips. No grip is universal, they all have strengths and weeknesses. The Stevens grip offers a lot of independence and the most 'pianistic' playing of all the grips. Although it's sort of a piano player with only 4 fingers! I would argue though for vibes it lacks the power that the other grips offer. People have disagreed with me about this, but they haven't changed my mind yet.
I think the grip that I use offers a sort of middle ground between the 2. It seems like the Burton grip might be the most 'powerful' of the group. But I haven't used that grip in 20 years so I can't speak about that. Also I don't know much about the Stevens grip except what i see.
Any thoughts on grips??
posted by Tony at
10:32 PM
5 Comments:
I have a few thoughts to share on grips, although in the interest of full disclosure I have to admit that I am primarily a pianist and accordionist who doubles on vibes. Therefore, it’s fair to say that my views might not be applicable to someone whose primary instrument is mallets.
I feel that all grips are meant to be functional, and a grip is nothing more than a tool to get the music within the individual player expressed in the most fluent manner. So I believe that the choice of one grip over another is largely based on doing what it takes to “get the music out.” I would wonder if Burton’s grip was actually the first four-mallet grip he actually tried to use, or if he gravitated to that particular grip out of necessity. I think that Burton’s grip had been the most practical four-mallet grip for vibists attempting to be heard over a rhythm section in an era when amplification technology was severely compromised. A Mike Mainieri workshop I attended at the 2003 PASIC suggested that, in a modern day and age when mics are better and pickups are available for those who like that sound, other grip options might be more viable.
An analogy might to say that Monk's splayed fingering on piano allowed him to sound like Monk, and a different fingering style would not bring his inner music to the surface.
I’ll offer a different perspective on the same subject: I studied vibes with Terry Gibbs, whose xylophone-style grip involves holding the mallet a certain way with stems at a certain length for the purpose of “snapping the bar.” Terry’s grip was borne out of the need to cut through a big band – to have the vibes stand out through thirteen horns plus a rhythm section. Terry actually has a unique four-mallet grip that he plays as well; I saw him play “Getting Sentimental Over You” solo with full four-mallet chords on every note of the melody. My point is that a “grip” is, in my opinion, the result of combining mallet choice, stem length and thickness, cord vs. yarn choice, into a conscious application for the purpose of expressing the music within. I recall making the point at the vibenet that the Miceli grip, while being previously employed by other players like Victor, was still very unique because the application of that grip was unlike Victor’s or anyone else’s approach.
One of the things that I think is truly unfortunate today is that the economics of playing music forces vibists into playing functionally at the expense of developing a unique approach. Certainly not a true statement across-the-board for everyone, but budgets for jazz groups rarely exceed duo or trio formats, and as a result I think it locks vibists into playing like piano players, and hence you get all these piano analogies applied to vibes. True for some players, but certainly not a given in all situations.
Thanks for allowing me to share some ideas in this forum.
John
By
Anonymous, at 9:10 AM
yo john that was great.
i didn't thing i was very articulate, but i wanted to start a conversation about grips.
i'm a functional player, i'm a workhorse playiing where ever and whatever. so yeah my grip has to have volume to it.
you're right about amplification and how that allows more people to experiment with more grips. but then the amplification is a part of your technique, which could be a problem. as i get older i want to carry LESS crap!!
By
Tony, at 7:39 PM
Is Stefdav using the Burton grip? It's funny, it looks more like the traditional grip to me .
I share John's view that grips are meant to be functional, however, I don't quite get the analogy about Monk. Sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me.
I also don't understand John's second opinion on what a grip is. Again, I'm sorry, but I find it confusing.
I heard Gary say several times that it doesn't matter what grip you use as long as it is the simplest, least motion, most comfortable and logical way to play. That is usually the right way.
That sounds very encouraging to me.
I heard Gary tell the story about his grip several times, as people always ask about it.
He started playing the traditional marimba grip he learnt from his marimba teacher, Evelyn Tucker and kept it for quite a few years until he started to improvise. Gary felt that grip was too clumsy - mallets that weren't being used moved up and down and so on - as a result, he started a long period of experimentation. He ended up crossing the mallets the opposite way to the traditional grip and found his answer. But Gary always points out that he didn't in fact invent that grip. Sometime after he started using that grip he met other people, amongst them a percussionist from Chicago named Bobby Christian, who was much older than Gary and had been using that grip way before him. One of Gary's jokes about that: "I guess the Christian grip didn't catch on"
I think that after we go through the process of learning the basics of a grip, a technique, etc, the music itself leads the way in which we continue to develop such grip or technique, not the other way around. So I have to disagree with Tony's statement.
Again, I think the music itself should dictate the sticking to be used. I don't see the point in forcing ourselves to play something a certain way that isn't musical just to prove that we can do it.
In my view it's great to see the vibraphone standing alone and taking care of things it didn't use to. It can only expand on the capabilities of the instrument and it may eventually benefit its popularity.
I think that, contrary to what John said, a vibraphone is less locked in duos or trios, although that partly depends on the musician. You have more room, if anything, to fully take advantage of touch, articulation, dynamics, density, space, time, form, colors, etc, and you can still be heard. Isn't that nice for a change?
By
Anonymous, at 10:48 PM
We would all agree that grip choices are relative to what works for the individual musician. As a matter of personal taste, I find the vibes/bass/drums trio format incredibly restricting when I hear it. It is true that it opens up possibilities for exploring the aforementioned nuances, but after 10-15 minutes my ears are ready for something else to happen. To explain my Monk analogy, I would have to recommend watching Monk on video (BetJ is running the Monk documentary this week on the “Masters of American Music” series). Marian McPartland shared an interesting observation about Monk in that she walked into the Village Vanguard one afternoon when Monk was warming up and heard Monk practicing in a very “legit” and rhapsodic classical piano technique, but then he went back to playing “like Monk” when the rest of the band showed up for rehearsal. It impressed on her that Monk’s fingering and hand position were actually matters of choice, as opposed to her previous opinion that Monk might have been restricted by an absence of proper schooling, and reinforced that hand grip (or position if you’re a pianist) is still only a tool to be employed by the artist.
Tony, you’re right about the amplification becoming part of your technique, and I would wonder if advances in amplification might have influenced Mike Mainieri’s decision to form Steps in the late seventies, which I tend to think would be a band sound that could not exist onstage without that kind of amplification of the vibes sound. I’ve been actually thinking about selling my Provibe w/ pickups and re-investing in a Xylosynth, since moving the Pro combined with restricted space on stage is making the XS an attractive alternative.
By
Anonymous, at 6:52 AM
John,
you're right, i always dig what you have to say about all this.
you're right about burton's grip and microphones and steps ahead as well as technique or the lack or it, or the uniqueness of it contributing to ones sound.
i was concerned after working a lot with the k&k pickups that my technique had suffered a little because it became so easy for me to play. i did a gig without the k & k during this period and i was FREAKED out because my endurance was sooooo down. for me it was a scary experience. i've adapted since.
other people manage to get around some of the problems i have with tech issues on the vibes.
also the sound of the k&k mics had altered my concept of the instrument.
i like primarily the acoustic sound of the instrument. i've never been able to make my kat work well, i know others do, i have trouble there. maybe it's my choice of synths?
i know it's silly and corny but when i look at the mallet kat i think, man if there was a blackout i couldn't play it. for some strange reason that freaks me out!!
My point is that a “grip” is, in my opinion, the result of combining mallet choice, stem length and thickness, cord vs. yarn choice, into a conscious application for the purpose of expressing the music within. I recall making the point at the vibenet that the Miceli grip, while being previously employed by other players like Victor, was still very unique because the application of that grip was unlike Victor’s or anyone else’s approach..
that's a great definition of technique. it really helps to individualize us, because in the end it's all about the application. i love reading what you have to say!!
By
Tony, at 5:51 AM
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